349 Tammy Gooler Loeb - How Podcasting Changed Tammy Gooler Loeb’s Life

Harry Duran

0:00 - 0:07

So, Tammy Gooler Loeb, career and executive leadership coach and host of the work from the Inside out podcast. Thank you so much for joining me on podcast junkies.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

0:09 - 0:11

Thanks for having me, Harry. It's a pleasure.

Harry Duran

0:11 - 0:24

So, given the focus of this show is on podcast junkies and people who've passionate about the medium, what would you say is the one thing you can point to in terms of how podcasting has changed your life?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

0:24 - 1:35

Oh, I love that question. It has changed my life in a number of ways. But the one that comes to mind immediately is the opportunity to have really wonderful conversations with people who I probably wouldn't have had a conversation with otherwise. And it's not to say that I wouldn't have wanted to, but I think that podcasting is a great way to connect with people who, many of whom are very, very busy and have very full lives. And when you give them a platform to share their work and what they know and their story, they're more apt to be willing to have that conversation. And I don't say that in a way that's like, oh, they're only talking to me because I have a podcast. But it does open up a possibility that wouldn't have been there before. And so it's really, it's a lot of fun, too. It's just really been a lot of fun, and I'm going to keep going with it.

Harry Duran

1:35 - 1:48

So let's rewind the clock back a little bit and talk about how you got here. Obviously, anyone takes a look at your LinkedIn page can see that you've been doing this for a while. So I'm curious, first of all, where did you grow up?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

1:48 - 1:57

Oh, I grew up on Long island in New York. I tried to say that very carefully rather than saying Long Island.

Harry Duran

1:57 - 2:01

I know what you're talking about, because I grew up in Yonkers. So, yeah.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

2:01 - 2:51

Oh, well, then we're practically neighbors. Okay, so it's funny because I left Long island when I was 18 and really never lived there again, really have been in Massachusetts for the most part since then. And yet I still identify as a New Yorker. And I grew up in a town called Bayshore, which was on the south shore of the island. And the thing that people might know about Bayshore is that you get the ferries to Fire island from Bayshore. That's probably the only thing that would make Bayshore knowable, other than the Entenmann family of the entman's bakery had their first plant, their first bakery in Bayshore. You know, you could get some goodies from there.

Harry Duran

2:51 - 3:00

Yeah. Anyway, I'm a child of the eighties, so definitely remember the chocolate donuts, the chocolate chip cookies. There were several that were intimate favorites in my house, for sure.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

3:01 - 3:03

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Harry Duran

3:03 - 3:05

What's your fondest memory of growing up on Long island?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

3:06 - 3:58

Well, I think the summertime was a really good time. We belonged to a beach club, and I remember just riding my bike. I mean, I went to summer camp and things like that day camp, but would ride my bike down to our beach club. And once I aged out of camp, I'd go down to the beach club and hang out with my friends, and we'd swim and play tennis and just had, you know, kind of a relaxing, easy going time by the beach, get really sunburnt. And I wasn't a sun worshiper per se, but there was something about the ease and the openness of the summer. And my dad was a big tennis player, so I really did learn to play, and it was just a lot of just very relaxing being by the water and. Yeah.

Harry Duran

3:58 - 4:01

So are you now by the water in Massachusetts as well?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

4:01 - 4:07

I'm just outside of Boston, so I'm not that far from the water, which is great.

Harry Duran

4:07 - 4:15

So as you headed off to college, did you have in mind what you wanted to be when you grew up, and how close are we to what you had planned to?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

4:15 - 5:43

You know, actually, it's a great question, too, because when I went off to college, I really wanted to study psychology, and I did study psychology, and I thought I was going to go on and get a PhD in clinical psych and really prepared myself for that and then decided not to go to grad school right away. But I did go into the mental health field, and then everything I did after that point was somewhat focused on, and I did some other work, too. But most of the work I did had something to do with helping people in need different populations, even though I did dabble in politics and policy work and even fundraising, everything had to do with helping people who needed some kind of help. And then when I found coaching, which was a good 25 years ago, that just felt like the right intersection of all the things I had done, but it wasn't quite as intensive, and it also didn't feel like I would be starving to make money at the same time, so at least it didn't for me. And I think I was also always a little entrepreneurial, and I think I was better off working for myself than working for some kind of other organization or entity. So being a coach really worked out well for me.

Harry Duran

5:43 - 5:47

What was the draw to psychology well.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

5:47 - 7:11

I would say my parents had some influence in that way. Not that they were pushing me in that direction, but from a very young age onward, they would talk to me about doing things that were meaningful or would have an impact. My dad was a school psychologist and would come home, dinner table conversations. He would talk about different kids and families that he was working with. He probably shouldn't have been, but, you know, he didn't name names, but he spoke about them in such a nice, interested, and compassionate way. And my mom worked in special ed earlier in her career, and then later on, she worked as a social worker in a nursing home. Both of them always spoke in such a respectful and caring way about the people that they were trying to help. And I think I was always inspired by all of that. And from a very young age onward, I always did volunteer work. So I learned to work with a lot of different populations. And the conversations I had with them always, they always encouraged me to be fascinated by people who had. Who looked at the world in different ways and who experienced the world in different ways. And so it always left me feeling good, like I could make a difference somewhere.

Harry Duran

7:11 - 7:14

Is it important for you to make a difference in the work you do?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

7:15 - 7:23

Absolutely. I want to say that's an obvious question, but I don't mean that, you know, I don't mean to sound snarky or anything like that.

Harry Duran

7:23 - 7:27

No, that's okay. As a fellow New Yorker, I've got thick skin as well, so don't worry about that.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

7:27 - 8:18

en I first moved to Boston in: 1986

Harry Duran

8:19 - 8:24

So you mentioned you got started in coaching about 25 years ago. What did the coaching industry look like back then?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

8:24 - 9:29

It was a baby. There was maybe five or seven coaching training programs. Most of them were taught over the phone, and the one that I did was the, was called the coaches. Training institute. It's now called the coactive training institute, but their courses were in person. I went with them because of that, and I wanted to have my training in person, but it was a new field. I think they were calling most of it life coaching at the time. It wasn't really, you didn't have people necessarily going into businesses and organizations in the way that they are now. And although I already had an MBA at that point and had also done some work in organizational development and leadership development, so I could see the intersection between what I was learning as a coach and what I could do in organizations. But the coaching field itself wasn't really quite there yet, but it got there pretty quickly.

Harry Duran

9:30 - 9:32

And when did podcasting become on your radar?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 10:30

I started podcasting, well, I learned about podcasting probably about seven or eight years ago and then started to think about developing myself more as a thought leader around careers and career transitions and how people are engaged in their workplaces. And I started to think, how am I going to get some of my thoughts out there? So I thought, should I blog? Should I have a podcast? So it was kind of between the two. Should I write or should I interview people or speak? And I decided to, I chose the podcast, and that was back in 2017 I started, but it took me about a year from the moment I decided to actually start recording, really pulling it together. It took me a little while to get there.

Harry Duran

-: 10:55

So for folks that are intimidated by those first steps, and a lot of times it's technology overwhelming. And obviously back in 2017, 2018, getting easier and easier with every year to find resources and gear and equipment. But because I started in 2014 and I was piecing together like Skype and call recorder and just like I think I had the ATR 2100 that you're using as well, to start, thanks to, aha.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 10:59

This was my first microphone I'm using today, even though I've had other ones.

Harry Duran

-: 11:02

And so where did you go to learn and to figure out what to.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 12:10

Do from other podcasters? So I knew some other podcasters and they were at that time, and I think they still are today. They're very generous. It's a very generous and thoughtful community. It's not a community. They're all over the place, but they're really, there's a lot of good information out there. And it really, it doesn't take a lot to get started. I think really where the effort and the energy is, if you really want to make a go of it, so to speak, is to hang in there and be consistent. That was the major lesson I learned, or was told, really, from day one, you know, you don't need, like, the best microphone. And the technology has come so far along. There's really, you really only need a few things to really get started. I think the key is to really make the commitment to be consistent with it and to build that into your life. And I was able to do that, and I've stuck with it all these years, and I'm really glad I did because it's been such a rich experience.

Harry Duran

-: 12:18

What was your decision in terms of format or content when you first got started? Did you have a clear outline for what you wanted to do at the show?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 15:15

I did, actually. It wasn't, and it actually hasn't changed that much. I'm actually thinking about making some changes now, but it was pretty much about finding people, really wasn't that hard. Finding people who have found their way through their careers from one place to the next, either from a place of maybe some discontent or unhappiness to a happier place with their work, as I call it, from the inside out, that they finally started to listen to that inner voice, that instinct, that intuition that has probably been telling them all along. These are the kinds of things that you really want to be doing. And it's not about throwing out, you know, your bank account and everything to follow your dreams. I don't believe in that. I think you can find what you really would like to be doing with your life if you just take a moment and listen to yourself. And I think a lot of people don't do that because they're so busy trying to live up to a set of standards that they think are right, but they're not always happy living up to that set of rules. And so that really guided me, and I had no trouble finding people who had kind of been on some sort of journey of starting in one place and ending up, not even ending up somewhere else, but just wherever they were at that point. And it was, it's just so much fun. It was fascinating. A lot of the people that I have interviewed, especially in the earlier days, were people that I met in a community that I had joined. I'm a member of Dory Clark's recognized expert community, so I had signed up for her course, how to become a recognized expert. And so that really provided a foundation for me to start the podcast. That was sort of my first real, let's say, project that I really moved forward with as a result of taking that course. And the people who I met through Dory's community were most of them epitomize, finding their work from the inside out, starting in one place and then evolving into something. But most people in their careers don't stay with the same thing they started with anyway. So it's really nothing people say, how do you find your guests? How do you do that? It's like, actually, they find me for the most part, but I do come across people all the time who have these really interesting trajectories, and I invite them to the podcast, so it's really fun.

Harry Duran

-: 15:34

Yeah, that really resonates. As someone who spent 20 years in corporate before pivoting into my current path, I can definitely relate to that. You think you're headed one way when you're coming out of school and you're making all the necessary moves to move up the corporate ladder, and then at some point life decides maybe there's another path for you.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 16:01

Yeah. And then you have to actually make that move, or at least kind of move through whatever fears or hesitations you have to get there. And it's not always easy. There's lots of things that can get in the way, but the story of how you move through that and what are the decision points? What are the thoughts that get you there? I always find that part fascinating as well. I'm trying not to interview you right now.

Harry Duran

-: 16:06

I know I do the same thing when I'm a guest on a show as well, but we'll save that for when we turn the tables.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 16:09

All right, we'll do that.

Harry Duran

-: 16:12

We'll make this a two part interview now. Part one. Yeah.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 16:13

All right.

Harry Duran

-: 16:22

Yeah, it'll be fun. When you started, did you have a format for your guests? Did you have an idea of the nuggets of information you were looking to get from them?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 19:15

Yeah, I did, and it's evolved a little bit, but honestly, it's kind of. And even though I would say it's not boring, it actually has been kind of the same the whole way through. Which is funny, because there's not a lot else I do in my life that way. But I always start with. I start with a question, which is, you know, take us back to your early years. Tell us, you know, what your formative years were like and how they may or may not have informed where you are today, because some people could never have imagined from where they started to where they are now. But it's always interesting. And some of the people I interview are people who are interviewed all the time and they're telling the same stories all the time, or, you know, promoting their book or some kind of program they're working on. And so I really like that question because it usually gets them talking about things that they often don't talk about on other programs. And they often will say to me, that was fun, I really enjoyed. And it got them thinking about things about themselves or about how they did get from point a to point b to point c in their lives that they hadn't thought about in a while. And it gave them a perspective on things. So it's really a fun part of the interview. And sometimes, actually, some of the stories they tell aren't really fun stories. Sometimes people open up and share some very, very personal stories that really also, though, do inform why they're doing what they're doing today. So it's not always a pretty picture, but it really is compelling. And I think it really does get to the heart of what the podcast is really meant to do, which is to show people what's possible, that no matter where you come from or what you've done previously or what baggage you think you're carrying around, there is always a possibility to get to the next place that would make you happier. And I will never, you know, I will never let go of that idea because I think that we, especially here in the US, and I think in other, you know, western countries, let's say, or developed countries, I think most of us do have the luxury or the privilege to be able to create the opportunities for ourselves to do something that would be more satisfying and meaningful and still have the kind of lifestyles we want and all of that. We have to work at it, of course. But it, I'm trying to show people what's possible through all these different stories.

Harry Duran

-: 19:20

How have you grown as an interviewer over the course of the podcast?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 20:42

Well, you know, I don't know how to articulate that exactly. Other than that, people who I've interviewed, some of them themselves are, have been professional interviewers. Like, I've interviewed people who were, you know, Emmy award winning broadcasters, and that's a little nerve wracking. And yet they have then not only told me directly, but also posted on social media what a great interview they had with me. And I don't think they're saying that just to sound nice. I believe that the way they've articulated it was genuine. And so it's been really nice to get that kind of feedback from people. So I guess I've grown in that I've allowed compliments in and started to believe some of the things that they're saying there are things that I still do to this day that I wish I could do better. So maybe I've grown, and then I'm aware of some of the things I still need to work on. And, you know, some of the episodes are a little too long. I'd like them to be a little shorter. I'm still working on that, but I just get into listening to people's stories so much, I can't. I can't cut them off sometimes.

Harry Duran

-: 21:25

How has it affected you or your life in the real world? Because what I notice now is when I'm having conversations with people, if there's a. You know, I was at a conference a couple of days ago, and there was a group of us at a table, and I sort of felt like I was in a. I kind of switched on into, like, a podcast moderator mode, and I started asking questions. Cause I wanted to get the group talking, and I, you know, had them share, like, something that, you know, someone may not know about them. And we went around the table, and everyone shared something interesting. So I find that it's something that's been helpful for me as a conversation starter to just have that skill of being a good listener, being naturally curious, you know, just intuitively pull threads. Now, when I hear something like, oh, tell me about that, tell me about that. And so I wonder how that's colored your real world life.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 24:27

Well, I think, actually, my coaching training really has a lot to do with that. So, you know, you're getting me to think a little bit, because even prior to all of that, I was on my high school newspaper, and so I was interviewing and writing back then. Now, that may not sound like much, except that my podcast episode last week was with somebody that I went to high school with, and I did an article about him in high school because he was an up and coming boxer, and he was training for the junior Golden Gloves competition, which I guess is a big deal in the boxing world. And he and I grew up on different sides of the track, so to speak. We had nothing to do with each other in high school. But all of a sudden, I was told I needed. I was. All of a sudden, I was the sports editor on my high school paper, which was hysterical and. And of itself, and I needed to interview him, so I did little. And he was, like, a tough guy. He was, like, with the tough crowd, and I was with the. I was in all the advanced classes with the nerds, so. And I was on the high school paper, so I interviewed him. I wrote the article, never really gave it a lot more thought until it won an award at the Columbia Scholastic press conference, one honorable mention, but that was a good thing. And then after that, never gave it any thought until this past year. I went to my 45th high school reunion and he was there. And it turned out that he had become this big fancy lawyer who has won all these lawsuits. He won a big lawsuit against the NFL for all the head injuries that all the players have gotten. He won a big lawsuit against Volkswagen around the diesel engines. So these are lawsuits that most of us have read about in the papers. I didn't know he was one of the lawyers who won those suits. So he's become a champion for people who need his help. He didn't start out that way. He started out as a carpenter out of high school, so he never expected to get there. And so he was being installed into the Bayshore hall of Fame this spring. So he was at the reunion. I dont know that he had ever come to a reunion before, but he was there. And I went up to him at the reunion and he said, tammy, he said, you have no idea what that article did for me when, you know, back then. He said, I almost didnt show up to the interview that day. He said, I have shown that article to my kids. He has six kids. He said, that was such a boost to my confidence. You have no idea how much that meant to me.

Harry Duran

-: 24:30

Wow, that's amazing.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 25:22

So what can I tell you, Harry? I've been interviewing people my whole life, changing lives. So then I said to him, you know, he's been on CNN, he's been, you know, he's been on, you know, I said, well, would you come on my little podcast? He said, absolutely. So I just had him on the podcast and I thought, what a full circle moment to have somebody and this article. Little did I know that it meant so much to this tough guy who turned out to be this wildly successful plaintiff attorney who's now, you know, in the public eye all the time with all these cases, he's wonde fighting the good fight for all these people. So, you know, I'm just sort of blown away by all of that and thinking, yeah, I remember I was interviewing people back then.

Harry Duran

-: 25:56

So you've definitely had that ability to connect with people and either through your training, you just get them to open up to you. Because a lot of times it's especially with podcasts. And the fact that everyone has a podcast nowadays, it's almost like a running joke now, but you can really tell when someone has either done their homework or is really a good listener or is really has a vested interest in hearing about you and your story. And when you have a bad experience, then it's just a reminder of making sure the things not to do on your own show as well.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 26:09

Yeah, that's a very good point. Having been a guest on some podcasts where the host is unbelievably so well prepared, it's almost like they know things about me I don't know about me.

Harry Duran

-: 26:10

Yeah, that can get a little weird sometimes.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 26:20

And then I'm thinking, wow, I don't prepare that well for my podcast. I'm almost embarrassed. But, you know, it's really, it's just very funny.

Harry Duran

-: 28:03

I think what's interesting is that there's different styles. There are the people that pride themselves on literally, like, upturning every stone and finding out stuff from you and probably interviewing your friends. And that is impressive. And I think there's a place for that type of show and where they just want to probably, you know, because there's so many shows, there's, like, a little bit of competition, and they want, like, well, I want to, if they've been on 20 shows, I got to make sure, if it's a popular person that we have something completely different. And so, and, but interesting for me, like, I really focus. I don't do, like, a lot of research on my guests, but I focus more on just, like, the fact that we're both podcasters and just kind of, I feel like it helps me be more attentive during the conversations. And now with video. I started doing a video from day one, but it was just a mix of, like I said, I was using ecamm's call recorder and Skype, kind of moshed together. There was a plugin so you could see the person, but it wasn't recording the video at the time. But I knew from day one, I just had this feeling that if I was just listening to the person, it would be like, you're on a phone call or something. You get no body language. You know, if you ask a challenging question, there's silence. You're like, are you still on the phone? Or, like, are you still there? Whereas in video, you can see the person is like, they're thinking right. They're wondering, like, do I give them the right answer? Do I give them the correct answer? Or you can tell sometimes just by body language if a question hits home for someone and they're just like, oh, I hadn't thought about that in a while. And I just love the opportunity, you know, to be able to do that and to share space with people in a way that's, like, more intimate. And I, at this point, I've probably said it on every podcast. I feel like there's three people in a podcast conversation, the host, the guest, and the listener. Singular. So there's one person listening to us in their earbuds, and they're having this experience with us because without our listeners or without our viewers, we don't have a show.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 28:38

No, we don't. And that's a really good point. I was just as you were talking about that, I was thinking about the times when I do get a feedback from people about a particular interview, and they say, I really liked, you know, when you asked this or you talked about this, or even, I would have loved to have heard more about this thing or that thing. And, you know, I don't get insulted by that. I think, oh, maybe I'll have that guest back and talk with them more about it, or, gee, I guess you really were listening.

Harry Duran

-: 28:39

That is a good sign.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 28:58

Yeah, yeah, sometimes I, you know, it's hard to know as a host who's really listening, because unless you get feedback, you just don't know. You have no way of really knowing. I mean, the data that you can collect is somewhat limited, and it's the only way, you know, people are listening is if they tell you.

Harry Duran

-: 29:22

Sometimes I wonder if people purposely, like, leave flubs in, or sometimes you'll get those newsletters that say, dear first name, and then inevitably everybody responds. But I think marketers have even picked up on that now, so they probably send it out that way just to get someone to reply. So it's all these little marketing you talk about the psychology, right? How to get people to engage with your content.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 29:26

That's really funny. I hadn't thought about that. I have to give that a try.

Harry Duran

-: 29:29

So, tell us the origin story for the book.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 32:30

Well, it's actually, the book is really part of the origin of the podcast. In fact, if anything, the book was a seed that was planted in my head probably long before the podcast. And then I went ahead with the podcast. But the book is, there's 22 stories in the book, and most of them are based on podcast interviews that I've done. There are a few stories in there that are not, and they're all stories that fit into one of nine themes. So the subtitle, the title of the book is work from the inside out, break through nine common obstacles, and design a career that fulfills you. And the nine common obstacles are the kinds of things that I've seen over the years that really seem to get in the way of people pursuing more meaningful and satisfying careers. And so the first one is fear, and I talk, and then fear is kind of the under thread that runs through almost all the other barriers. And so I try to then put the stories in the chapters that really relate to the various barriers. One of the other barriers I talk about is, or the chapters called it's never too late, because I hear a lot of people say, oh, it's too late, or I'm too old to go back to school, or it's too late for me. And some of these people are, you know, they're like 40 something or 30. I've heard someone said 38 was 38, and they're like, oh, it's too late for me, you know, or I'm falling behind, as if they're comparing themselves to other people. And I'm thinking, well, I didn't start coaching until I was like 39, 38, 39 myself. So, you know, who's to say what's too late? I had a client who was 70 who I helped get a full time job, and people are working till all kinds of ages. It doesn't mean you have to, but if you want to think of yourself as too old, well, then put yourself out to pasture if you want to. But I would say stop doing that to yourself or one of the other ones in the book. That is one of my favorites is that people will go after something they're really good at rather than something they really enjoy. And the fact is, if it's something you really enjoy, you probably are good at it also. But I think people often default to what they're good at. There's a number of other barriers that I talk about, and then really using the stories to really illustrate how did various people really just move beyond those barriers. In fact, most of them never really encountered those barriers because they really did see themselves as just going forward beyond it. I want people to really see again what's possible. So it really does go hand in hand with the podcast in many ways.

Harry Duran

-: 32:32

What was the process of writing a book like?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 34:57

Well, having a pandemic was actually really helpful, and when I first decided to write the book, it was before the pandemic. But when I started to write the book, the pandemic kind of came hand in hand with it. So it definitely created some space, because all of a sudden, even though I work with a lot of people remotely, people just shrunk back. They just sort of checked out, so it did give me more time to do it. I also hired a writing coach, and that made a huge difference. And so I had kind of somebody who I could speak to on a very regular basis about how the writing process was going. The other part of what it was like for me to write a book, which might be different than other people's, I didn't give myself a hard and fast deadline. Like, I've got to get this book done in six months or three months or whatever. I wasn't in a rush. I wanted to enjoy the process of writing a book. I didn't have any attachment to getting this thing done. By the time I was close to being done, then I felt like I was about 14 months pregnant, and it was like, get this thing out of me. I really did feel like that at one point, but for the most part, I wanted to enjoy the process because I knew that writing a book was not something I was doing as a revenue generating endeavor, that if I ever made money on it, that would be great. But that was not the intent. So it wasn't. There was no push on that end. It was more, I want to enjoy this process. This is something I had thought about for years. And then one day I was having dinner with some colleagues. Literally, it slipped out of my mouth, and I said, I'm going to write a book next year. And then I sort of looked at myself and said, did you just say that? And sure enough, it was a few months before 2020. And I was like, I guess I did say that. I guess it's the year I'm going to write the book. So that's what I did. And I learned so much along the way. So it really was a process, but it was an enjoyable one. I think there might be another one coming out at some point. I don't know when, but I have some ideas.

Harry Duran

-: 35:00

How was it to work with or find a publisher?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 36:01

Well, you're looking at her self published, then I'm the publisher. I wasn't so sure I was going to do that. I was pretty sure I was not going to seek a publisher. I didn't. I knew enough already about what people deal with when they're looking for a publisher. And I knew that I didn't have really the profile to get a publisher or that it was going to be. It was probably going to be kind of an uphill battle. And I thought, that's not my purpose. I don't have a need to do that. It wasn't that I didn't want to try to sell books. But I also know that when you're publishing a book, no matter how you publish it, you are still ultimately responsible for the marketing of that book. And so if I was going to still ultimately be responsible, I figured eventually I figured that self publishing was the better way to go because then I was more in control of the whole process.

Harry Duran

-: 36:08

And what has that process been like for anyone that might be interested in self publishing and then to understand what the subsequent marketing challenges are going to be?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 37:32

Well, it's been a lot of work. I will say that. I would say it's been the least fun part of writing a book, and that's just because it's because I'm busy coaching and doing so many other things that I don't give it the level of attention I probably should sometimes, but it probably could be more fun than I'm giving it credit for. It's really how you frame it. But, and there's no magic bullets, you know, there's no magic way to sell a book. And, you know, I'm really more interested in the message behind the book than selling the actual book. I mean, of course I love it if people buy the book because I want them to get the message. And so the thing about the book, though, is that it's what they would say. It's evergreen, you know, it's not like it's just a trendy thing. The kinds of things I'm talking about are the kinds of things I've seen that people struggle with for years around their work. So I know that some of those things are going to continue to be relevant, and I know that the book is worthy of being marketed for years to come. So it's not like, oh, I've missed an opportunity or something. The book's been out over two years now and it's selling at a steady pace. But I wouldn't tell you that I'm ready to buy my second home based on the profits from my book.

Harry Duran

-: 37:46

I think what's interesting is the fact that there's a lot of tools now for creators as well, so you can do publishing on demand. And I think hopefully, gone are the days when authors have garages full of books just sitting idle.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 39:21

Well, that's a very good point. I worked with a friend of mine, actually, who helped me out a whole lot, and she knew a lot about all those options, both on the marketing end and in the production side of things. I learned, as I said, I learned a lot from her and she really taught me all the steps and really walked me through all those pieces in order to get the book out the way I did. Without her, I don't know what I would have done. I probably would have gone with a hybrid publisher, which I think would have not had the same outcome and would have probably cost me even more. So I'm really glad I did it the way I did it. And if it's okay, I want to say her name, because she's brilliant. Her name is Jenny Lisk, and she really helped me in ways that I could never have imagined otherwise. She really knows how to, and she's put her own books out and has helped a lot of other authors. She works with a lot of nonfiction authors, but she really helped me in ways so that I could help myself. It wasn't just her doing everything for me, although she does do that for some people, but she really stays abreast of what the current trends are in terms of how people get their books out. And it's true what you were saying about print on demand and things like that. Like, I have a box of books in the house, which is handy to have, but I don't really need to have that on hand in order to sell books. That's true.

Harry Duran

-: 39:32

So talk to me a little bit about how everything comes together between the podcast, the book, and the coaching. Do you make a call to action your show so that people are aware of the work that you do?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 40:44

Yes. So at the end of every show probably should put it at the beginning of the show. That may be a format change, but right now, at the end of each show, I do a little bit of a call to action about the availability of my book and the fact that people can subscribe to the podcast so that they don't ever miss an episode. And I encourage people to check out the book. They can get it. You know, they can get it anywhere. Amazon, independent bookstores, but also their public library. I encourage people to request it from their public library, because people don't think of that, that it's not just saying, go buy the book. In fact, I would be better off if they did go and request it from their public library. There's lots of different ways to impress upon people how these things can be helpful to them. And I've also created a workbook that goes along with my book that I'm offering to people as a gift, which I might end up publishing in a more robust manner, a fuller workbook. But right now, it's available for free to anyone who wants it.

Harry Duran

-: 41:50

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the more ways people can find out what you do and find out ways to work with you. I own a podcast production agency, and what we've been noticing is actually, to your point, putting that call to action earlier is going to be helpful. And even depending on what podcast host you use, we use captivate. You can do a dynamic ad insert, so something you can insert dynamically and then sub it out. So we've had some clients test that out. So they've got a book promo. They'll run that for two weeks, and then they'll end that promo and then switch back to their evergreen promo of an event or something like that. So I think it's. I think sometimes people shy away from that in the beginning in terms of like, talking about what it is that they do. But if people are getting value from the, from your podcast interviews and they see you as the facilitator and, you know, getting this information out from people and they know that you've written a book, you know, it just feels like a natural segue into saying if this is something that could be helpful for you. And I think, to your point, having an easy lead magnet, you know, is a way to see, you know, to actively see if people are coming through the podcast and really connecting with the content.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 42:08

Right. So what you're describing is a wonderful, strategic move, and that's something that has not been my strength, I will admit that. I hear things like that, and it's so easy to tell other people to do those things, and I need to do more of that. So thanks for the tips.

Harry Duran

-: 42:16

Yeah, that's okay. I mean, I think it's helpful to understand and actually for the benefit of the listener and the viewer, who would be an ideal client for you?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 43:31

Oh, thank you. Well, I mostly work with people who I would say are experienced professionals, but that doesn't mean that they have to have some big, higher degree or anything. I'm just talking about people who've been out in the working world at least about ten years, give or take, although I've worked with people a little younger than that. But I'm not looking to work with people fresh out of school, necessarily. So people who've been out and about working for at least ten years, people who, some who know exactly what they want to do, but aren't sure how to get there, and then there are people who have reached a crossroad and they're saying, you know, I'm ready for something else, or I'm trying to figure out what that is. I'm really good at helping people to figure out what their next moves are. But then also, how do you get there? Because the ways in which we navigate our way through the world of employment has changed dramatically in the last few years and in the last decade. And a lot of people get frustrated with the process because they don't know how to navigate it. So I really try to help them with that, or even helping them to make a lateral move within the situation they're in. So really just helping people advance to where they want to go.

Harry Duran

-: 43:57

I think about how little time I spent on LinkedIn when I was in the corporate world. It would just be till I get whether I was changing a position or I just had, I was moving to somewhere. I was job hunting compared to how much time I spend on it almost daily at this point because of networking that I do and just following up on threads and conversations. And so in these conversations that you're having, either through the podcast or through your coaching, what's a big limiting belief that keeps coming up for people?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 45:37

That networking is this dreadful thing that should be, you know, that you're supposed to do and it's a have to and, you know, and then once you land in the next place, you're all set for a while. There's no job security anymore. And I don't say that to be negative. I say that and then people say, well, I don't want to go out on my own because that's not safe. And I'm thinking, well, if you're out on your own, then you're more in control of your life than if you're working for someone else. So don't knock it that much. And I'm not saying it's not for everyone, but I do hear people say, oh, I just want a job with benefits, and then I'll be okay. And it's like, you don't know that you're going to be okay. You know that you're going to get a job with benefits, and then you don't know what's going to happen the next day. And I don't, and I don't really don't mean to sound, you know, extreme, but I think that people need to think about their careers as really almost their own little company. In a way, they really need to be in charge of their own destiny for real, because it is no longer a working world like it was maybe for some of our parents or grandparents. And so we really need to be in charge of that. And don't assume that your employer is going to take care of you in any way possible. If you know that, then you're going to make different decisions and you're going to look at things differently. But I think there's a lot of ways in which a lot of people aren't prepared for that.

Harry Duran

-: 47:02

I think it's really important, and I'm really glad you said that to me because as much as that was the case even five years or ten years ago, and just being more aware and companies doing layoffs just because, or companies running out of money or whatever the current economic situation was, recessions, whatever you call it, those were always there and those continue to be there. But now what I'm seeing with this increase in AI and tools like chat GBT, it's been pretty mind boggling to see some of the stuff that can be done. I've been playing with some of the tools and there are things that I've had it do where I would probably would have had to have hire someone to do that for me either from a copywriting perspective, proofreading perspective, research perspective. And it's a matter of really educating yourself to the climate that we find ourselves in. And this is, this stuff is not going away and it's just getting smarter and smarter. And even if you're just aware of what's happening and you maybe you just are intimidated by tools and you haven't jumped in, but I think just echoing what you said, like taking ownership over your own future, you know, because at the end of the day, like, as long as you're working for someone else, you know, you're still at the whim of what's happening with either them or their company, or don't think for a second that your employer is not looking for ways to cut costs as well. And you'd rather. So you sort of want to be educating yourself as to what's going on and just seeing what the possibilities are for you.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 47:46

Yeah. And I don't think that you have to walk around on eggshells all the time or be in a state of fear all the time. It's not about that, but it is about being well informed, as you're saying, and feeling that sense of ownership for your own life and your own wellbeing, just like you would for your own health and everything else, you know? And it's just that much more important. And what's somewhat challenging for most people is that it really hasn't been modeled for anybody to have to be that much in charge of your work life in that way, you know, because it wasn't really the norm until it's become the norm. Now, wherever I. It's become that much more of an imperative.

Harry Duran

-: 48:08

I think it'll be an interesting couple of years to see how this all pans out and how it affects people's ability to work. And even just this with COVID the ability to force employers to accept remote work, and even that's shifting. Some people are demanding that people in the office. So we're seeing a whole range. It's literally a whole new world when it comes to the workforce that I think it's interesting.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 48:22

It really is. There's no doubt about it. It's still shifting. It's shifting back, so to speak. And I think. I think it's gonna be like. I think there's gonna be some kind of boomerang thing going on. I don't know what, but it's definitely.

Harry Duran

-: 48:42

The topic for your second book. So I think if you pay enough close attention to the trends that are happening in these conversations that you're having on this show, I get the sense that you'll have, like, a follow up, because I think how people change in terms of thinking from the inside out about their next position has probably changed now, even since those early stories you had.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 49:26

Oh, yeah. Well, I already have something out there as a sort of a tickler, as part of a speech and an acronym that I say, and I didn't come up with this exactly myself, the term, because I've seen book titles by the Suretti. You know, I say be the CEO of your career. But this part I did come up with, which is that the c is to be curious, e is to stay engaged, and o is to take ownership. And I really want to build on that, because I think if people could stay curious and stay engaged and take ownership, they're going to be far better off than if they just make assumptions about what they think other people are going to do or provide for them.

Harry Duran

-: 49:36

Very well said. I have a feeling that's going to make it into our promo snippets for this episode. So a couple of questions as we wrap up. What's something you've changed your mind about recently?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 50:01

Oh, gosh, that is great. Ooh. It's, like, on the tip of my tongue. What is it? There is something. Oh, it's not coming to me now. Oh, I know what it is. It's actually more personal, but I don't mind sharing it. So my husband is planning to retire, and I've been kind of a little bratty about it.

Harry Duran

-: 50:02

Why is that?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 51:15

I've been well, because I love what I do for work, and I worry about what's going to happen with healthcare. And so I say, why would you stop working completely and allow, you know, and just want to, you know, I just don't, you know, neither one of us is a trust fund baby, okay? So let's make sure that we have some cash coming in in case, you know, all of a sudden, the medical bills start piling up, because I can see what's already changing, even with all the health insurance we have right now. And yet, you know, he has said to me, you know, I've been working for close to 50 years, and I'm really ready to be done. And I'm thinking, you know, I finally realized, you know, he's right. He's allowed to stop working if he wants to stop working. I just don't know if I want him around the house all the time. But I don't really mean that. What I mean is that, you know, I was. I think it was a financial thing I was worried about, and I've turned a big corner on that now, and I'm really thinking, you know, what? He's got to do what he needs to do. I don't know why I was being so bratty about it.

Harry Duran

-: 51:53

Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's. There is that it's so interesting what's happening with the baby boomer generation that's moving into retirement and how that's changing. They're calling it the greatest transfer of wealth of all time, because, you know, a lot of things are happening with, like, the property they own and then what they're handing over to their kid and just, you know, just interesting to see. But also this dynamic of people. Normally, you think if your parents are the same age, they're just gonna both retire at the same time. Mine are essentially what happened to mine, but if they're not, then, or if you're coming into retirement age at different times, it's an interesting dynamic. You know, I always think of everything as a inspiration for a podcast. So there's probably someone doing it about, like, mistimed retirement or something like that.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 52:39

Well, and what is retirement anymore, anyway? Like, I mean, we have a bunch of friends who've retired, and several of them, they retired, and then within a few months, they were back to, like, some part time gigs. And I wouldn't be surprised if that's my husband ends up doing some consulting or part time work. But I think it's. I think it's not like I keep thinking I want to either have a. Write something or teach a class that's like, this is not your parents retirement, you know, because it's true. When my parents retired, they were younger than me, and they literally just stopped working. They stopped working. It was either all or nothing. And I think. I don't. I think retirement's a little different now.

Harry Duran

-: 53:14

And also just there's more interesting things to do. I always feel like I love business, I love podcasting, and I love every aspect of being an entrepreneur. The highs and the lows. You know, some are challenging sometimes, but I think it keeps my mind, you know, I activated, and I have some slight ADHD neurodivergence going on, so I have to be, like, engaged. And so, you know, it's been helpful to have that diagnosis. Understand. Okay. This is why, like, I need to, you know, be conscious of, you know, of doing things like deep work and focused attention and not multitasking. I don't always succeed, as my partner will tell you, but I definitely do my best.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 53:30

Yeah, no, I get it. I really do. And I think people are finding all different kinds of ways to, you know, I guess, fulfill their needs in their second act. And now they're even talking about third acts, right? So, you know, I think about. I look at Norman Lear, right?

Harry Duran

-: 53:31

All in the family.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 53:45

He worked up till the end, you know, he was engaged and doing all kinds of cool stuff. I'm not saying that I want to work like that, but, you know, if I had a legacy like his, I. Wow. You know, amazing.

Harry Duran

-: 53:50

One last question. What's something. What's the most misunderstood thing about you?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 55:24

Oh, boy. Wow. You are really. You're really getting to it. Most misunderstood thing. Well, you know, it's an interesting question because my first thought is more the kinds of things that go through my mind about what I think people might be thinking about me rather than what I know that they're thinking rather than. I don't even know how to answer that honestly, to be honest with you. My answer to that is, I can only tell you what I assume people are thinking about me, which is exactly what I talk to people about all the time, which is stop acting as if you know what everyone's thinking about you. You're not a mind reader, and you don't have a crystal ball. So if I was to tell you, well, I think that some people don't take me seriously enough or they don't take coaching seriously enough. And, you know, how many people in my life will come to me for advice or want to pick my brain and then just assume that they can do that and not pay me. Whereas if I was a lawyer, of course they'd ask me what my rates were. And so there's a lot of assumptions that can be made based on that kind of thing. Coaching isn't to be taken as seriously, but that's not about me. That's about what they might be thinking about coaching, if that's what they're thinking. And so I honestly don't. I don't know what it is that people do or don't know about me as much as what I probably would presume or assume. And you know what happens when you assume, Harry?

Harry Duran

-: 55:53

We'll remind people in the show notes as well. Well, it's interesting because it's this reminder, and I think it's the first time, you know, I've seen it from that perspective or describing that perspective of reminding people of the stories they tell themselves and what other, you know, and we're so in this mode of, like, worrying what other people think or worrying what other people might be saying. And at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter, you know, because it's just we have to block that out, run our own race, put our blinders on, so to speak, and then, you know, see what comes of it.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 56:06

Well, or we make up stories when somebody responds to us in a certain way or says something or does something in a certain way, and then we make up all these stories about what that says about us, when, in fact, maybe it says something about them.

Harry Duran

-: 57:01

It's so funny because I'm kind of. I've been on a spiritual journey for about 20 years, so I've been. I've been prompted to read the course in miracles. And one of them, one of the workbook exercises is you're not upset for the reason that you think you are, and it makes you really think, because in arguments with my partner, and I'm like, I'll get annoyed. And if I think about that one line, I'm like, am I annoyed something she just said or because it triggered something insecurity that I have about myself, you know? So it's been. It's a really like that. I think I've just been working more on that introspection and just kind of putting some thoughts into, like, why is it that we think the way we do and we think about, like, books we were given when we were in grade school? Why do we think the things we think about the world, you know, because it's how we were taught and we were only taught what we were given. So that moment that you have that discernment to start looking outside of your bubble is when you start to really realize that the world is a bit more complicated than we originally thought it is.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 57:11

And it's often not what we think it is, other than if we were to start talking about, how about the politics going on in this country? But I won't go. I didn't say that, did I?

Harry Duran

-: 57:41

Well, Tammy, thank you so much. And, you know, for a little behind the scenes, I did a cold outreach on LinkedIn, just trying to, like, connect with more podcasters, you know, and share some of the services we do with the agency. And I've had varying degrees of success with it. But it's always nice when I people realize there's a real person on the outside, on the other side of that outreach. And so I want to thank you for responding and for having us, you know, learning more about the fact that you did have a show. And so once I heard that, I'm like, well, I've got a platform to tell your story, so I'm glad we connected and we made some time to come on.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 57:44

Thank you for inviting me. It's been wonderful.

Harry Duran

-: 57:48

So where's the best place for folks to learn more about you and your coaching services?

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 58:02

Oh, thank you. The best place is my website, tammy gulerloe.com. and I believe I'm the only Tammy Gooler Loeb in the world. So even if you misspell it, you should end up finding me eventually.

Harry Duran

-: 58:36

It's always nice to have your own name as your own domain name, you know, I thankfully jumped on that early. So thank you so much being generous with your time and for sharing your inspiring story. It's so interesting to see, you know, the path, you know, that interest in psychology and led to you, to the coaching, and then how you discover the world of podcasting and then all these stories that you've told and go and giving people the platform. That's why I've always believed in the power of helping people from their voice. And you do it, and you've been doing it with the podcast and with the book. And so I want to just congratulate you on doing that and for the work that you continue to do.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 58:42

Thank you. Thank you. You made me feel very good. Thanks. Well, I'll have you back. I'll have you on my show, too.

Harry Duran

-: 58:44

That'll be fun. Thanks for your time again.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 58:44

Great.

Harry Duran

-: 58:45

All right.

Tammy Gooler Loeb

-: 58:45

All right.